Winter Twilight Mitts - possible errata?

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Shawn wrote
on Jan 28, 2009 12:23 PM

Thank you for publishing the Winter Twilight Mitts pattern: it’s beautiful. I’m doing a sunset sky with Panda Silk Cranberry Tones. This is the first stranded color work I actually expect to finish, and I’ve ripped it out twice all ready =)
I have a question about the chart: it’s drawn as if the thumb portion is right aligned. IE, the new stitches go into the first pre-existing column, and push all the existing stitches one column over to the left.  For the pattern to look the same on the knitting as it does on the chart, the increases would have to be at the end of the chart instead of in the middle, as indicated.
In actual working, with the increases in the middle, the block is left aligned: the new stitches start a brand new column, and the black slanty line up the left of the chart is actually a column.  But it looks like the pattern of branches is drawn so it looks pretty on the chart, rather than looking pretty when knit. I charted it out, and there are indeed floating black portions that don’t connect up.  Here's my chart so you can see what I mean (click for larger size):

From Knitting

So, am I doing this wrong? I interpreted the pattern as calling for a single increase in each box marked M1 (one while reading right to left, and the second while coming back). This puts two increase lines straight up along the edge of the hand, dividing the thumb fabric from the hand fabric. Is that incorrect? Maybe I’m doing something else wrong entirely?
Thank you for your help!

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AndreaW wrote
on Jan 29, 2009 3:09 PM

 Hi Shawn...

Not sure if I can help...but will be glad to try. These are on my to-do-list but haven't done them yet. I have done countless items of stranded colorwork...both my own designs as well as those of others.

I'm not totally understanding your descriptions but did print out your chart to compare to the orig. I find yours not very accurate (sorry!!!) mainly because your first gusset st sqs along the increase line are not complete or even all the same sz sqs. I realize you were trying to make the thumb gusset look more "real" but it actually kind of messes up what I'm seeing.

Before I forget...I have to say that your color combo sounds really to see them when you are done!!!  Are they for you or for a gift?  I was thinking about being able to try on for fit as you go.  I saw your (?) sock when I went to print your chart. You must be doing afterthought heels, are you? I did 1 pr w/ those (Jaywalkers) + I quite like the way they fit/feel.  I'll shut up now + go back to your problem...

W/O having done them...just looking @ the charts...I don't see any issues w/ the orig ones. I'm thinking maybe it has something to do w/ the fact that you've not done colorwork before. Have you used charts for anything else before? ie: lace/ cables/ etc ?

A several little things I'll ask....

#1: on rnd 36, you are working 32 sts in patt, then pl M, then make a total of 2 sts in MC, pl M, work remaining 32 sts in patt (end rnd)...correct?  So you've not "interfered" w/ any of your orig sts...just created 2 more sts dead center w/ a M on ea side of them ? A total of 66 sts now.

#2: On rnd 37; you work to 1st M, sl M, work 2 sts in MC, sl M, work to end of rnd.

#3: On rnd 38; you work to 1st M, sl M,  M1 st in loop you pick up, work 2 sts in MC, M1 st in loop you pick up, sl M, work to end of rnd. You will have a total of 68 sts now. There will be 4 sts between the M's @ the gusset.

Not trying to talk "down" to you...honest...just trying to make sure you are getting off to the right start. The internet does have it's limits when trying to help someone.  The only thing I can think of is that somehow your incs are messing you up. They will always be touching the M that they are next to...they do not "travel out" into the gusset. So they do not affect the look of the sts in the center of the gusset....those sts just stack neatly on top of each other all the way up.

Your final paragraph makes perfect sense to me!!!  That is correct.

Did any of this help @ all ???   If not, I'm happy to try + help some more if you give me more feedback. I will get around to making these but need to do some other stuff 1st. I got an order for a pr of wool worsted wt mitts in colorwork...yesterday, so must do them.

   Take Care,   Andrea

ps:  just went back + looked @ all the charts/ etc one more time. Are you allowing for the fact that a knit st is actually "v" shaped...not a neat sq?  So that while 2 sqs may look connected tog...2 "v's" seem to be "floating nearby"!!!  In this patt I think the designer was trying to use that...bare tree branches against a dk sky often look a bit disconnected.  Just my take on it.

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Shawn wrote
on Jan 30, 2009 11:59 AM


Thank you very much for your help!

My re-charting isn't to make the chart look more real, it's to get the columns to line up: ie, increases aren't in an existing column below, they start an all new one. The problem isn't with the stranding; it's with the justification. I have used cable charts and even other stranded stuff (that got ripped out, but matched the chart). I double checked my chart against the pattern, and the gusset is transcribed correctly at least through row 51, so I'm not sure where you're seeing differences in charting. Maybe up above where I gave up checking =)

You realize, no matter what the shape of the block on the gusset, all of the enclosures are stitches? And the triangles (as opposed to the 4 sided shapes) are where the stitch happens to be an increase?

Let me try to rephrase the problem I see with the chart. The body of the glove is 32 stitches across, then 32 back. When you start adding the thumb gusset, you add increases, but you do them at the border of the body of the work and the thumb gusset, instead of up along the edge of the thumb. So, when you're doing, say, row 46, you knit 32 stitches, then increase 1, then knit 5 more stitches, then do it again in reverse (knit 5, increase 1, knit 32). That increase stitch starts a whole new column of stitches. It doesn't continue the last main body column, nor does it continue the first thumb gusset column. It's all new. But the pattern shows it as being in the first thumb gusset column, and shows the all new stitch as being at the end of the pattern, which would be along the edge of the thumb. This also pushes every existing stitch in the row over a column, instead of leaving them in their existing column. Essentially, it's like there was an earthquake in your neighborhood, and everything has slipped one house to the side, and suddenly you're facing an entirely different house across the street.  To make the pattern work the way the chart implies, you'd have to knit the 32, knit the 5, *then* increase, then do it all backwards.

I'm not sure if I can answer your question about floating V shapes. I just know that what I was knitting looked really wrong. You have little pieces of branch floating around, and they're completely surrounded by sky. Take a look at the thumb here:

Winter Twilight Mitts


It looks much more like my chart than it does like the pattern. Up at the top of the thumb, the last branch on the edge is broken rather than continuous. I read that the pattern author free-handed the first glove, then wrote the chart for the second. I'm wondering if that picture is the second glove, and the chart was transcribed oddly or something.

The socks are actually yoga socks, from Just Jussi's pattern, so they have neither heel nor toe, so that your feet will stick properly to the floor. That's another panda silk colorway (nutmeg tones). I didn't particularly like how they turned out: the varigation length and the circumference combine to make it look like brown camoflage. I did a set for my mother in Jojoland Melody that turned out much nicer.

Thank you again for helping me out with this.  I've had the mitt sitting on a table lonely because I don't want to finish it looking wrong.

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AndreaW wrote
on Jan 31, 2009 10:41 AM

 Hi Shawn...

I really didn't forget about you...tried to answer twice last nite but for some reason lost my reply twice. The 2nd time it actually signed me out of KD???  I'm very much a niteowl...but since the 2nd time (long answer gone poof!!!) happened @ 6AM I decided that maybe the knitting gods were trying to tell me something. Go to bed maybe?!?!

Anyway, I'll try again. Probably a poor choice of words the other nite. Sorry! I wasn't really trying to say your chart was wrong...I didn't check row x row...but that it looked wrong to my eyes. After knitting as long as I have (I'm 51 learned to knit @ do the math) you get used to "reading" things a certain way. Slanted/ partial sqs just look funny to me + I can't visualize as well.

This is actually kind of fun talking to another knitter that I suspect approaches knitting in a similiar way to me. I suspect we are both a bit picky/ perfectionist/ + math minded. The more I look @ this mitt/ patt I think perhaps it's going to turn out that that is just the way the patt is. This case bothers me less than some might because of the subject matter. I have a yard full of leaf-less trees right now. If you go out @ nite + look up....a lot of the smaller branches don't look connected. If this were a geometric pattern or some sort of man-made design...unconnected would drive me nuts!!!

Now you have me really intrigued + I want to try this patt now. However I really need to finish this order 1st. I'm about 1" past the thumbhole on the 1st it is getting there. This chart we've been "discussing"...I've wondered about working just the thumb gusset in sock yarns. If I kept say black as a main color + switched out the background on 5-6 of them....I can see a cool hat top...+ a quick way to see the graph knit up in one of them.

Where did you find this other pic of the mitt? I hadn't seen that one. I also envy you being able to upload something. I tried following the directions here when I finished the Herringbone Rib socks so I could show the lady who had orig asked for help w/ them. I don't get the option to "browse" so I can select what I want to upload. I have uploaded pics to Kijiji before so I'm not totally dumb about this. Do you have any hints? Could something be set wrong on my account? This is bugging me!!!

I left the email w/ the latest post fr you up on my inbox screen yesterday while doing something else. My husband used the computer + commented on how much he liked them. While not a knitter he is a fiber/ textile/ color person so I guess he's a keeper!!! 

2 final thoughts: if the chart bugs you...why not change it to suit yourself. You certainly have the skills to do it!!! I haven't met a pattern yet that I didn't love to tweak! I've always thought that a patt was meant as a starting for me!!!

If you have the patience to wait till I finish my order...I will try this next + post here w/ my results. If I can figure out how to upload a pic....I'l even share one of my efforts w/ you. I hope to have the order done in 2-3 days permitting as that sometimes screws me up.

        Take Care....Andrea

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Shawn wrote
on Feb 1, 2009 5:48 PM

I found the picture here. As for uploading pictures, I didn't do it =)  I just linked to the picture from the article.  I did upload my chart, but to picasa (they'll give you a free account and walk you through uploading if you like), and again just linked it here.  I didn't see an option to upload an image here.  Give picasa a try.  It's very user friendly.

I'm quite sure something's weird with the pattern, just because it looks so right on the chart, and so wrong when the chart's drawn as it actually comes out.  I've tried re-charting, but you have to scrap the original and start all new; it's not just a matter of shifting squares according to a formula =(  That's probably what I'll end up going with.  I'm just not very artistic.  I love following a pattern, and I love finding little errors or ambiguities, and figuring out what actually should be done, and writing it up.  Proofreading, kind of.  I'm approaching the whole thing as an engineer, which I am, and I suspect that it's a little foreign to knitting as a whole, but it leaves me with a woeful lack in the creativity area.

Good luck with your order, and thank you so much for your help!

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