Official Bella Blouse Knit-Along: "Hey, I'm adding sleeves!" Forum

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oxid8 wrote
on Jul 29, 2011 5:05 PM

Lynne,

For some reason I am not seeing that send to a friend option so I'll just bug him later. 

She also said a person's arm is only so wide.  I think she meant that it would show as a horizontal line past where your arm would cover it up.  I believe this might be even more so on a raglan because you do an initial bind off for those too.  Since I haven't knit too many sweaters where I made my own armhole I can only say try what you planned and see what happens.  I do think an initial bind off is important.  Another sweater I made started the armhole decreases without that bind off and there is a wrinkle there that does not look attractive.  I believe it is caused by this lack of bind offs.

Shanna

imalulu:

Shanna....thank you so much for this info.  I really had to think it thru as I read it....but it makes sense to me.  Also, thanks for the info specifically about plus size.  Since I am making the largest size, could you explain the statement below.  What does Lisa Shroyer mean about "will show on the front and back"....like puckering?  I was thinking of 7-8 sts for my initial underarm bind off, but that is only around 1 1/2". 

oxid8:

 In Lisa Shroyer's book Knitting Plus she recommends that plus size ladies bind off 2 to 2 1/2" initially for a total of not more that 5 inches between front and back or it will show on the front and back.

 

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oxid8 wrote
on Jul 29, 2011 5:07 PM

There is that rascal.  For some reason not all the posts have every option.  Thanks for pointing this out to me.

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imalulu wrote
on Jul 29, 2011 5:36 PM

It looks like the :EDIT" is listed on the right only on your own posts....the ones you have actually written and posted.  Glad you found it.  Lynne

oxid8:

There is that rascal.  For some reason not all the posts have every option.  Thanks for pointing this out to me.

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Posts 27
Sewesie wrote
on Jul 31, 2011 7:24 AM

oxid8:

I am not going to answer a specific post yet but throw out some things to think about.

When doing set-sleeves the idea is to take the bust measurement down to the cross back measurement.  You subtract cross back from the 1/2 of the total bust to get the inches needed for the decrease.   Multiply this number by your stitch gauge, round to an even number and divide by 2 again to get total stitch decreases for each side of the back (front will be the same as back).  Now you that you have the number of decreases you get to determine how to decrease them.  I read a few different references and here is what I gleaned. 

Rule of thumb is to bind off 1 of stitches on the first row for a total of 2 inches between the front and back.  Shirley Paden says 1/2 to 1 inch.  She also says to put decreases after the initial bind off into the first 1 1/2 to 3 inches of length (armhole depth).  Debbie Stoller says to put them into the first 1/3 of shoulder depth.  Everyone says to decrease on right side rows if possible.  Deborah Newton says that on lightweight yarns it should be every other right side row.  In Lisa Shroyer's book Knitting Plus she recommends that plus size ladies bind off 2 to 2 1/2" initially for a total of not more that 5 inches between front and back or it will show on the front and back.

I think using another sweater is great provided it fits in the cross back and the armhole shaping and sleeves fit the way you would like on you.  The gauge wouldn't need to be the same to take measurements and convert to this sweaters gauge.  

I am sure that was as clear as mud so if I need to explain it better please ask.  Maybe I can draw what I mean and take pictures.  I am sometimes mathamatically challenged so test it and tell me if I am wrong.

Now for an example.  My daughter's bust is 34 plus 1 inch of ease for a total of 35 inches.  Her cross back is 14 1/2 inches.  One half of 35 is 17 1/2 subtract 14 1/2  to get 3 inches.  3 inches times 5 stitches per inch is 15 stitches.  I can round it to 16 or take it down to 14 (depending on how I think the cross back fits and stretch of fabric) and divide by 2.  I think I will round it to 16 and divide by two to get 8 stitches needed to decrease each side.  If I bind off an inch (5stitches) then I will still need to decrease 3 stitches.  Now I will try it and see if I like the curve.  If not I will pull it out and play with the numbers, maybe bind off 4 initially and decrease 4 stitches every right side row.

Stitch and *** Superstar Knitting by Debbie Stoller

Knitwear Design Workshop by Shirley Paden

Designing Knitwear by Deborah Newton

Knitting Plus by Lisa Shroyer

 

I'm being a real duh brain, I know, because your instructions are so specific and I did all the maths, following it closely and, for me, I came up with an answer of 6 stitches - maybe I'm just a really bad shape - and it seems too few to work out a curve.  My total bust size is 43", OH meausred my back for me and came up with 19".  Am I measuring the back in the wrong place, or have I just made a hash of the maths?  Sorry to be so foggy-brained about this.  I'm trying to blame it on the M.E.!

 

 

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oxid8 wrote
on Jul 31, 2011 9:58 AM

Your just human not foggy brained or so I tell myself.  43 divided by 2 equals 21 1/2" for front and 21 1/2" for the back.  21 1/2 - 19 = 2 1/2".  2 1/2 multiplied by 5 (your stitch count?)  equals 12 1/2 divided by 2 equals 6 1/4 stitches for each side.  If you think it is a little big you could take out 7 stitches on each side and still use one for seaming which would make it 8.  Your math is good.  A chart of measurements by the Yarn Council of America suggests someone with a 43" bust would have a cross back of 17 1/2".    Cross back is measured from shoulder bone to shoulder bone across the back.  I can hardly feel mine so I also follow an imaginary line up from where my arm meets my body.  It is helpful if someone else takes the measurement as long as they understand where to measure.  

If it does turn out to be 17 1/2 that would add 4 more stitches to each side to decrease. 

Let me know if your measurement changes.

Sewesie:

['m being a real duh brain, I know, because your instructions are so specific and I did all the maths, following it closely and, for me, I came up with an answer of 6 stitches - maybe I'm just a really bad shape - and it seems too few to work out a curve.  My total bust size is 43", OH meausred my back for me and came up with 19".  Am I measuring the back in the wrong place, or have I just made a hash of the maths?  Sorry to be so foggy-brained about this.  I'm trying to blame it on the M.E.!

 

 

 

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Posts 27
Sewesie wrote
on Jul 31, 2011 11:31 AM

oxid8:

Your just human not foggy brained or so I tell myself.  43 divided by 2 equals 21 1/2" for front and 21 1/2" for the back.  21 1/2 - 19 = 2 1/2".  2 1/2 multiplied by 5 (your stitch count?)  equals 12 1/2 divided by 2 equals 6 1/4 stitches for each side.  If you think it is a little big you could take out 7 stitches on each side and still use one for seaming which would make it 8.  Your math is good.  A chart of measurements by the Yarn Council of America suggests someone with a 43" bust would have a cross back of 17 1/2".    Cross back is measured from shoulder bone to shoulder bone across the back.  I can hardly feel mine so I also follow an imaginary line up from where my arm meets my body.  It is helpful if someone else takes the measurement as long as they understand where to measure.  

If it does turn out to be 17 1/2 that would add 4 more stitches to each side to decrease. 

Let me know if your measurement changes.

Using 15" as my back measurement, I've ended up with 16 as my final number; I could BO these, I think, as 2rows of 5 sts and 2 rows of 3 sts.  Would that be right?  What happens then about the decreases after the BOs?  I think I'm being very slow here, but I've never done a big adaptation of a pattern like this before and I should really have learnt something if I can get on top of this.

Sorry about still having no phots., but my phot. program has been on the blink for ages and OH has just given up after another afternoon of trying to sort it out.

 

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Posts 143
imalulu wrote
on Jul 31, 2011 2:59 PM

Shanna....I find this info very helpful and I've tried out one underarm bind-off and curve, but have decided to try another.  I have signed up for and am taking the Knit Lab course "Fit Your Knits"....and the section relating to this subject is really scaring me about how to knit the sleeve cap to fit into the bind-off and armhole curve.  In fact, the instructor says that you basically need a whole class in fitting the sleeve cap into the armhole scye.  I don't have any of the knitwear design books that you have, and wondered if you have looked at the comparison to the armhole shaping and the sleeve cap shaping so they fit and can advise us. Surprise Lynne aka imalulu

 

oxid8:

When doing set-sleeves the idea is to take the bust measurement down to the cross back measurement.  You subtract cross back from the 1/2 of the total bust to get the inches needed for the decrease.   Multiply this number by your stitch gauge, round to an even number and divide by 2 again to get total stitch decreases for each side of the back (front will be the same as back).  Now you that you have the number of decreases you get to determine how to decrease them.  I read a few different references and here is what I gleaned. 

Rule of thumb is to bind off 1 of stitches on the first row for a total of 2 inches between the front and back.  Shirley Paden says 1/2 to 1 inch.  She also says to put decreases after the initial bind off into the first 1 1/2 to 3 inches of length (armhole depth).  Debbie Stoller says to put them into the first 1/3 of shoulder depth.  Everyone says to decrease on right side rows if possible.  Deborah Newton says that on lightweight yarns it should be every other right side row.  In Lisa Shroyer's book Knitting Plus she recommends that plus size ladies bind off 2 to 2 1/2" initially for a total of not more that 5 inches between front and back or it will show on the front and back.

 

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Posts 80
oxid8 wrote
on Jul 31, 2011 6:52 PM

It took me a while to wrap my head around it too.  You could bind off that way or maybe space out one of the rows of 3 to bind off 1 every other row.  It really depends on how you want it to look and you might have to do it more than once to see what you like.  There is no hard and fast rule but your shaping or decreases should be finished well before you get to the shoulder.  If you see the post above one said in the first 1-3" and another said in the 1st third of total rows for the armhole.  Once you have decreased you continue even until your armhole is the length you need.  This is the measurement of your shoulder (not neck) down to 1 to 2" below your armpit crease.  The 1 to 2" inches is ease so you can move your arm.  If you put in too much  ease you will have a big sleeve.

 If you have enough yarn you could make an armhole with just enough stitches to bind off the required amount with some left to hold up to your body and see what it does.  You can also do it with a scrap yarn but if the gauge is not the same you will have to take measurements of what you finally determine works for you and convert it to the 5 stitches per inch.  Whew!!!!!! That is a lot of yous.

Shanna

Sewesie:

oxid8:

Your just human not foggy brained or so I tell myself.  43 divided by 2 equals 21 1/2" for front and 21 1/2" for the back.  21 1/2 - 19 = 2 1/2".  2 1/2 multiplied by 5 (your stitch count?)  equals 12 1/2 divided by 2 equals 6 1/4 stitches for each side.  If you think it is a little big you could take out 7 stitches on each side and still use one for seaming which would make it 8.  Your math is good.  A chart of measurements by the Yarn Council of America suggests someone with a 43" bust would have a cross back of 17 1/2".    Cross back is measured from shoulder bone to shoulder bone across the back.  I can hardly feel mine so I also follow an imaginary line up from where my arm meets my body.  It is helpful if someone else takes the measurement as long as they understand where to measure.  

If it does turn out to be 17 1/2 that would add 4 more stitches to each side to decrease. 

Let me know if your measurement changes.

Using 15" as my back measurement, I've ended up with 16 as my final number; I could BO these, I think, as 2rows of 5 sts and 2 rows of 3 sts.  Would that be right?  What happens then about the decreases after the BOs?  I think I'm being very slow here, but I've never done a big adaptation of a pattern like this before and I should really have learnt something if I can get on top of this.

Sorry about still having no phots., but my phot. program has been on the blink for ages and OH has just given up after another afternoon of trying to sort it out.

 

 

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Posts 80
oxid8 wrote
on Jul 31, 2011 7:12 PM

imalulu:

Shanna....I find this info very helpful and I've tried out one underarm bind-off and curve, but have decided to try another.  I have signed up for and am taking the Knit Lab course "Fit Your Knits"....and the section relating to this subject is really scaring me about how to knit the sleeve cap to fit into the bind-off and armhole curve.  In fact, the instructor says that you basically need a whole class in fitting the sleeve cap into the armhole scye.  I don't have any of the knitwear design books that you have, and wondered if you have looked at the comparison to the armhole shaping and the sleeve cap shaping so they fit and can advise us. Surprise Lynne aka imalulu

Lynne,

I decided to check out that lab as well since it was half off.  She had some good things going on but I think the biggest reason she said that is because she was concentrating on fit below the armhole and on raglan sweaters.  Both of her patterns in that course are raglan.  Before I had the books I came across an article by Pam Allen in Interweave Knits Winter 2007 about set-sleeves.  She gives you the formula to calculate how to make the sleeve caps to fit the armhole but doesn't tell how to do the armhole.  This is an excellent article.  At some point down the road I am probably going to explain this but if you have access to that article it tells you what to do.  The books pretty much say the same thing.  If you don't have access maybe you could ask Kathleen if she would be willing to put it online somewhere.  If that doesn't work out then lets talk again. Basically it is more math.  I was very glad to find that article because I don't like to try and rip fifty times to get what I like.  

As far a comparison goes, the cap height is related to the width of the sleeve at the underarm and also related to the inches around the armhole.

 

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Posts 64
robin e wrote
on Aug 1, 2011 12:42 AM

Many thanks to Lynne/imalulu and oxid8 for all the great information!  I'm still debating sleeves for this project.  I've never done 'set-in' sleeves (most of my sweaters are drop-shoulder), so I am learning alot from your posts (Yay!).  My first thought about the sleeves was to print some graph paper to gauge, take a shirt that fits me well, and draw!  [And, if I decide to do sleeves, for me it would be top-down in the round! (I'm a seam-hater!)  I'm not sure how this would work with the more fitted nature of a set-in sleeve.  Maybe some short-row work?]

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Posts 27
Sewesie wrote
on Aug 1, 2011 9:56 AM

robin e:

Many thanks to Lynne/imalulu and oxid8 for all the great information!  I'm still debating sleeves for this project.  I've never done 'set-in' sleeves (most of my sweaters are drop-shoulder), so I am learning alot from your posts (Yay!).  My first thought about the sleeves was to print some graph paper to gauge, take a shirt that fits me well, and draw!  [And, if I decide to do sleeves, for me it would be top-down in the round! (I'm a seam-hater!)  I'm not sure how this would work with the more fitted nature of a set-in sleeve.  Maybe some short-row work?]

I'm thinking of knitting the sleeves from the top down, too, partly because I don't know how long I'll want them and partly because I don't know how much yarn I'll have available.  I have Kristina McGowan's "Modern top-down knitting", in which she refers to Barbara Walker's method of measuring the biceps and calculating the size to make the sleeve.  The maths looks a bit similar to the armhole shaping!   I'm hoping this method will make it easier for me.  That, of course, remains to be seen!!

Many, many thanks for the kind help so far.  It's actually getting me to think that it's doable - of corse I haven't started trying yet.  I'm off to frog what I've already started on the armhole shaping and have a  go.

 

 

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Posts 80
oxid8 wrote
on Aug 1, 2011 1:09 PM

I found a video on youtube that I used to try a top down short sleeve.  It turned out okay.  I say okay because I was not sure about the whole sweater anyway.  In hindsight I might have changed the armhole.  Look up Paula Ward and click on the top down sleeves video.

Shanna

Sewesie:

robin e:

Many thanks to Lynne/imalulu and oxid8 for all the great information!  I'm still debating sleeves for this project.  I've never done 'set-in' sleeves (most of my sweaters are drop-shoulder), so I am learning alot from your posts (Yay!).  My first thought about the sleeves was to print some graph paper to gauge, take a shirt that fits me well, and draw!  [And, if I decide to do sleeves, for me it would be top-down in the round! (I'm a seam-hater!)  I'm not sure how this would work with the more fitted nature of a set-in sleeve.  Maybe some short-row work?]

I'm thinking of knitting the sleeves from the top down, too, partly because I don't know how long I'll want them and partly because I don't know how much yarn I'll have available.  I have Kristina McGowan's "Modern top-down knitting", in which she refers to Barbara Walker's method of measuring the biceps and calculating the size to make the sleeve.  The maths looks a bit similar to the armhole shaping!   I'm hoping this method will make it easier for me.  That, of course, remains to be seen!!

Many, many thanks for the kind help so far.  It's actually getting me to think that it's doable - of corse I haven't started trying yet.  I'm off to frog what I've already started on the armhole shaping and have a  go.

 

 

 

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Posts 64
robin e wrote
on Aug 1, 2011 3:51 PM

Thanks, Shanna, for the reference.  I'm off to watch Paula Ward's video now!.... I also found another link to top-down and set-in sleeves on ravelry:

http://www.ravelry.com/groups/top-down-sweaters/pages

 

Good point, Sewesie, about the flexibility of sleeve length with top-down.  But now I'm onto another thought:  doing the sleeves (in the round) bottom-up, then joining and finishing the top and sleeves together (like a yoke?).  Also thinking about the leaf band for the cuffs, but this could be done either way for sure.

 

I have to be a bit careful; my yarn is not tightly spun and won't withstand much frogging!

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Posts 143
imalulu wrote
on Aug 1, 2011 9:08 PM

Hi Shanna and all sleeve contemplators...I finally was able to sign back on to the KAL...for a couple of days I could not get on here.  Anyway...the Interweave Knits article by Pam Allen is fantastic.  Thank you Shanna for leading me that way.  I am moving ahead now with my second attempt at my armhole shaping and it's looking good.  I have more confidence, now, that I can figure out how to knit the sleeve cap to fit in the armhole.

Lynne aka imalulu

oxid8:

 Before I had the books I came across an article by Pam Allen in Interweave Knits Winter 2007 about set-sleeves.  She gives you the formula to calculate how to make the sleeve caps to fit the armhole but doesn't tell how to do the armhole.  This is an excellent article.

As far a comparison goes, the cap height is related to the width of the sleeve at the underarm and also related to the inches around the armhole.

 

Top 200 Contributor
Posts 27
Sewesie wrote
on Aug 2, 2011 4:23 AM

oxid8:

I decided to check out that lab as well since it was half off.  She had some good things going on but I think the biggest reason she said that is because she was concentrating on fit below the armhole and on raglan sweaters.  Both of her patterns in that course are raglan.  Before I had the books I came across an article by Pam Allen in Interweave Knits Winter 2007 about set-sleeves.  She gives you the formula to calculate how to make the sleeve caps to fit the armhole but doesn't tell how to do the armhole.  This is an excellent article.  At some point down the road I am probably going to explain this but if you have access to that article it tells you what to do.  The books pretty much say the same thing.  If you don't have access maybe you could ask Kathleen if she would be willing to put it online somewhere.  If that doesn't work out then lets talk again. Basically it is more math.  I was very glad to find that article because I don't like to try and rip fifty times to get what I like.  

As far a comparison goes, the cap height is related to the width of the sleeve at the underarm and also related to the inches around the armhole.

I don't have a copy of Interweave Knits Winter 2007.  Is there any way to access this article, do you know?  I'm new to Interweave and all its ramifications.

 

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